Senator: Rumsfeld must go

[Dogg]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A call from a U.S. senator for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign over the Iraqi prisoner abuse crisis was followed Thursday by the White House reiterating its support for the Pentagon chief.

Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, demanded Rumsfeld leave office.

All I gotta say is this guy is a goddamn moron...I'm sorry...his motivation is so politiclly motivated it makes me sick...

He claims Rumsfeld is the highest ranking civilian leader of the Military so he should quit or be fired...anyone know what CINC stands for and who it is? Command IN Chief and it's Bush, so if that puss Harkin wants the head person fired, he needs to pull his head out of his ass and initiate an impeachment session (which would be even more stupid)...I'd love to see the transcript from his CNN speech about an hour ago that I was watching because he is ONLY after Rumsfeld...he places almost no blame towards wanting the real CINC fired or any action against any Generals in charge or even the soldiers...he wants Rumsfeld to take full blame...he even states at one point that Bush is Ultimately responsable, but Rumsfeld is still to blame...

This is why America itself is so p**** whipped...we fail to allow those actually responsible take the blame and we pass the buck to the top of the ladder...it's not some kids fault that they decided to slaughter over a dozen classmates...they just pulled the triggers...it's societies fault...

This crap needs to stop...punish the soldiers that broke the law...simple...we bust crooks that break the law, wtf makes these soldiers so special that they aren't responsible and Rumsfeld is....is he expected to watch 1.5 million soldiers in 127 countries at once and accept their punishments for them because they are idiots? This also means that since he is defense, Powell must watch all 2 million governement works in 140 countries from the US to every single embassy and Bush must watch the remaining 350 million in the US since he is the President and leader of them, therefore he is responsible...

BTW, side note for those that dont get this, the president is actually 3 people in one...he is the President, Head of State and CINC...he delegates 2 of the 3 to SecState and SecDef while he maintains the Presidency...so basically if any American does anything wrong, we should fire the President...since that person is the ultimate person in charge of everything...

[Dogg]

It's even funnier to hear Kerry try to capitalize on this as though there was ANYTHING Bush coulda done what so ever and that he'd demand that he be reported to directly....what crap...no person in the military short of the CJCS or JCS members and his Milaides report to the president directly...

Dumbass didn't even know the difference between Frodo and Sam Wise calling on Sean Astin who played Frodo in the Lord of the Rings as one of his supporters....who told him he actually played Sam...

This was on the TV as I was typing the first part a minute ago on some speech is giving live...lol...

[Wrath]

Bush is saying now that Rumsfeld stays. But ya never know. If the criticism continues and gets worse I can see him being forced to resign. I don't think they are blaming him so much for what happened but for him not informing Bush or congress before the pictures hit the airwaves.

[-silent-]

to be replaced by who?

hopefully not wolfowitz

[kinggovernor]

to be replaced by who?

hopefully not wolfowitz

that would be something else, rummie out and wolfie in

[Dogg]

And I've said this before, what the hell business is it of congress about military matters...they were never in my chain of command and almost 70% of them never cared to even serve so what should SecDef or the Pentagon care about what they want reports on...congress is there to appropriate funds and make sure they aren't wasted...

They are in NO way a board of inquiry or arm of justice of this country....they seem to think they are really the President and Supreme Court all bundled up and they are barely patheticlly handling their own job of passing legislation...I demand everyone of those idiots to resign because they make America look worse than some reservists piling up naked iraqi prisoners...shit...at least they weren't raping them...I bet some Americans in our own prisons would rather be in an Iraqi prison right now...

[Wrath]

Bush should not have seen those pics on tv news for the first time. He should have been told and shown from the beginning. Damage control should have started back in January. Not after the pictures came out in the press.

[Dogg]

I'd like to see the source of the photos first...somehow I am not seeing them being from an official military news photographer so I'd be willing to bet 60 minutes published them first last week...otherwise it's just a news clipping of reported abuse being investigated...generals in Iraq hadn't seen them first so it's hard to blame Rumsfeld for not having them before then to tell Bush about...

[Wrath]

Here's the timeline according to FoxNews.

2003

• June 30: Army Reserve Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski named commander of all military prisons in Iraq.

• Aug. 31-Sept. 9: A team of counter-terrorism experts investigating prisoner interrogations in Iraq concludes that although the prisons should provide a "safe, secure and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence, … it is essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees."

• October: The 372nd Military Police Company ordered to guard Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

• Oct. 13-Nov. 6: A team of military police and legal and medical experts reviews the prison system in Iraq; it concludes that there are possible manpower, training and human rights problems that should be addressed immediately.

2004

• Jan. 13: A Member of the 800th Military Police Brigade tells superiors about prison abuses, and Pentagon officials are informed. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld is told a day or so later. Shortly afterward, Rumsfeld tells Bush.

• Jan. 14: U.S. commander in Iraq, Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, opens criminal investigation of abuses.

• Jan. 16: U.S. Central Command announces that an investigation of prison abuses is underway.

• Jan. 17: Sanchez formally advises Karpinski that there are serious deficiencies in her command and that the performance reflects a lack of leadership. Karpinski is later suspended from duty.

• Jan. 19: Sanchez asks for a high-level review of prison procedures.

• Jan. 24: Lt. Gen. David McKiernan, U.S. ground forces commander in Iraq, is directed to conduct the review.

• Jan. 31: Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba is named chief investigator on the review.

• Feb. 2: Taguba and his team visit Abu Ghraib.

• March 3: Taguba's preliminary findings are presented to McKiernan; they point to members of the 372nd Military Police Company and intelligence operatives as the abusers.

• March 13: The Army's Criminal Investigation Division charges six soldiers with counts ranging from conspiracy to indecent acts.

• April 6: McKiernan approves some report recommendations, including letters of reprimand for six MPs and noncommissioned officers; two are relieved of duties.

• April 28: "60 Minutes II" shows photographs of prisoners forced to engage in simulated sex acts.

• May 3: Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John W. Warner (R-Va.) asks Pentagon officials to testify before his committee the next day.

• May 4: Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld says those responsible will be brought to justice and widens investigations of prisons outside Iraq and Afghanistan. National security advisor Condoleezza Rice tells the Arab world that the abuses will be investigated and the perpetrators punished. Army officials give Senate committee a private briefing.

• May 5: President Bush appears on two Arab television channels, saying those responsible for the abuses will be brought to justice. Rumsfeld agrees to testify before the Senate committee on May 7.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119224,00.html

So on March the 3rd they knew because in the raw data pdf file they say on page 15 that pictures and videos were taken. There was ample time to let the president know that the pictures were out there (if they didn't already have copies themselves by that point, which they must have IMO) and might very well surface.

[Dogg]

Well hell going by that time line...everyone was doing everything already...congress is just being a bunch of bitches because:

1.) They are not in the military chain of command
2.) They have never been in the military chain of command
3.) The military chain of command was fully handling it since the begining
4.) The don't have enough dirt to get their puppet boy Kerry in the White House so the trhink louder cries will get more votes...


gogo DNC...way to look like idiots just because you lost control of every branch of government...lmfao

[Wrath]

My only problem (beside the abuse itself of course) is that Bush had to see it in the press. He should have seen the pics up front. I like Rumsfeld, always have. I like Bush too for that matter. I just wish this had been handled better and that it had never happened in the first place.

[-silent-]

From what I heard, it was a soldier who took those pictures and felt too guilty eventually....

besides that, if Bush saw the pictures before they were leaked on TV, what difference would it make? none at all.... its just a way of trying to make people side with him

[Dogg]

My only problem (beside the abuse itself of course) is that Bush had to see it in the press. He should have seen the pics up front. I like Rumsfeld, always have. I like Bush too for that matter. I just wish this had been handled better and that it had never happened in the first place.

But who had to pictures in what order? I've seen nothing saying the pentagon was hiding them or that even Rumsfeld saw them before they were on 60 minutes....or did he have them for a while? I'm not really reading up on it to be honest...I just see the DNC retorhic on CNN...

[-silent-]

they were brought to the military before it aired.. they just asked 60 minutes to wait 2 weeks before they air it so they would have a head start on the investigation and stuff like that

[Wrath]

From what I understand, Bush was upset with Rumsfeld because he had to find out about the pictures on the news instead of being told by Rumsfeld.

http://forums.seawolf.cc/showthread.php?t=1208

[-silent-]

but if he was showed them earlier, it would still be too late

[Wrath]

Too late for what?

[Wildwilly]

Will Reimer for Defense Secretary! :boink:

LOOK OUT CANADA, YOU'RE NEXT!!! :rofl:

[Dogg]

Too late for what?

For anything to be different...

Lets day Rummy had the pics, lets say he showed Bush

What changes or would happened different?

Would the acts be less offensive to anyone?

It's just something for the DNC to use for ammo because they have a shot in hell in November...

[Wrath]

:uh: :bash: :bash: :Poke: :hyper:

[Wrath]

Well I guess Bush felt he would have been better prepared to handle it if he knew. Don't you think Rumsfeld should have kept Bush better informed? Isn't that part of his job?

[Dogg]

Yes and no. You can't bring every single issue to the president's eyes...he has enough going on to worry about every military investigation as well as world affiars. However, in this situation, Rummy should of made it more of a bullet in conversation, but I don't think he needed to show the president the pictures...Bush didn't see it in the media first and was caught blindly - he doesn't get newspapers or just sit around watching 60 minutes...someone from his staff showed him the pictures so it's not like he was drinking a Bud watching a friends re-run and caught a news clip during a commerical and was like WTF!!!

But Rummy is delegated by Bush and confimed by congress to be the acting head of defense and to handle the matters...which according to that timeline, his people have been doing their job long before 60 minutes got involved...it's just more of a hype because the idiotic press feel left out and they are driving rage with the DNC to make it worse than it really is...the DOD even began punishing people before 60 minutes "broke" the story...

So in short, he didn't need to see the pics, but Rummy should said fear the shit storm about to break because it's gonna be huge...but never fear we have be acting on it all along...

[Wrath]

Thanks Dogg, in alot of areas it's really unclear to me who does what and why in the government. Our Canadian system is so different than yours.

[Dogg]

And just to add some personal feelings, the greatest system of goverenment off all time comes from the movie "Starship Troopers".

Until you serve your government, you aren't even a citizen and can't vote as to how it should act until you are willing to sacrifice yourself to maintain that system to of which you want to live under and judge...if you want to sit on the sidelines and not get involved, then you can, but you'll do it with no voice into the workings of the system...

I can only hope one day...

Some asian countries require 26 months of service like South Korea for all men 18 and over...

[Wrath]

Doesn't Israel require every citizen male and female to serve? Here I found this.

Military Information

The Consulate General of Israel in Los Angeles kindly requests to inform you that all Israeli Citizens are obligated to register with the IDF for mandatory military service:


Gender Born Between the dates Status
Men March 24,1974
to April 9, 1986
Resident or
Citizen of the U.S
Women March 20, 1977
to April 9, 1986
Resident or
Citizen of the U.S


Be advised, obligatory registration with the IDF is mandatory for:

Children born abroad to Israeli parent(s).
Children born in Israel that have immigrated to the U.S before the age of 16
Children with multiple Citizenships.
Children that do not intend to visit Israel any time soon.

The above-mentioned children are not obligated to enlist in the IDF as long as they are living with their parents abroad. They must, however, arrive at the Consulate to register with the IDF and receive authorization that they are children of immigrants.


Be advised, children whose parent(s) are working for or on behalf of an Israeli entity, private or public, or are working for an International organization on behalf of the State of Israel, cannot postpone their military service and will have to arrive in Israel to enlist.

http://israelemb.org/la/consularit/military-link.htm

[Dogg]

Never heard if they did or not...may just be a Selective Service type deal...every male in the US from 18 to 26 years is required to register for it (basically a draft), but they are only registered to be called up for war, they don't necessarily serve...not sure about Isreali's...but that looks like they do, but I know some that have not served and have lived there all their lives...may be exemptions...

[oPiumologist]

http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/rumsfeld.jpg
That man has such charisma. I hope he stays.

[-silent-]

Israel does have a mandatory period of military service... its length depends on what you are doing. I have a friend who lives there and he says its something most look forward to instead of fear

But Dogg there are other things needed to be done than military service. . . .

[Dogg]

I got tired of watching the idiotic rambling of the Dem's trying to score votes for the DNC in November, but they have to realize how stupid they are looking at some point...one idiot is bringing up impeachment as a way to try to fire Rumsfeld...lmao...not in this hearing though...

Mr KKK himself from West Virginia is even giving Rumsfeld crap because the Red Cross won't release their confidential reports for the public and it's Rumsfelds fault apparently because of it...I mean come on...this is more pathetic than listening to the 9/11 commision grill George Tenat on FBI policy...

They are even pointing out the Jan 13th, a report was filed, one day later (14th), investigation underway, like 2 - 3 days later brigade commander suspended...does anyone here realize what it takes to suspend a GENERAL OFFICER from duty? That is serious shit ladies and gentlemen...for Dem's to try to blow this thing out of the water like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut of is sad...you don't get actions this quick in kiddie porn..shit...Michael Jackson sat with a warrent for his arrest and actually negotiated a surrender over a few days and he was IN AMERICA...hell the Genral Whatever that started the investigation released infomation to the press in Mid January about it - just because lazy stupid ass reporters waited 3-4 months to "break" the story doesn't mean a damn thing was covered up...

WTF is wrong with the DNC...I realize they lost everything this decade so far but goddamn do we need to watch them act like 3rd graders until they win back any part of the government...